(17:05:28) NathanF: HueyNym-we're waiting a few minutes in hopes that a few more people will show, before discussing Puppy 109
(17:06:08) klhrevolutionist: Did someone say pizza ?
(17:06:09) HueyNym: That's what I was hoping. as I have a full page of notes
(17:06:28) NathanF: Lobster may not be able to attend, but he sent me a message with some thoughts on it.
(17:06:30) klhrevolutionist: Oh it is Pizzasgood. Well hello.
(17:06:36) Pizzasgood: Hey
(17:06:52) HueyNym: Pizza? Good!! :)
(17:09:35) NathanF: Okay, ten minutes into it so lets call this to order.
(17:09:59) HueyNym: kenny - are you periodically sending messages in #puupylinux to send people here?
(17:10:00) NathanF: If anyone else filters in then we can bring them up to speed quickly.
(17:10:36) NathanF: First order of business is the choice of browser, which is a sticky issue.
(17:11:10) HueyNym: I think I'd like to make it stickier....
(17:11:18) NathanF: Lobster votes Firefox, DVW of trashcan HOF voted for no change or Seamonkey.
(17:11:29) NathanF: HueyNym, ?
(17:11:48) HueyNym: heavily toward FF
(17:12:01) HueyNym: with extensions installed
(17:12:55) Pizzasgood: I'll vote FireFox
(17:12:57) NathanF: rerwin also voted for no change, or Seamonkey, for an easy transition into Puppy2
(17:14:30) Pizzasgood: Firefox without Thunderbird, that is. I have no opinion on email client as long as it's small.
(17:14:51) NathanF: PErsonally, I was never considering TBird.
(17:15:12) HueyNym: ditto
(17:15:19) NathanF: Maybe it would fit if everyone was content to use Dillo.
(17:15:24) raffyMn [n=root@210.1.117.38] entered the room.
(17:15:26) Pizzasgood: Yeah, I just wanted to specify
(17:15:46) NathanF: Hi Raffy.
(17:16:03) raffyMn: hi ppl
(17:16:09) HueyNym: I would also like to request the inclusion of dillo patched if it wasn't being considered already
(17:16:20) Pizzasgood: I'll second that
(17:16:25) HueyNym: Hi Raffy
(17:16:27) NathanF: We just started, topic is Browser choice, feel free to offend someone with this hot topic.
(17:17:08) NathanF: HueyNym-I added Dillo-8.5 with tabs and i18N to Grafpup recently.
(17:17:31) NathanF: We may need Dillo, if we move to Firefox, just to view help files.
(17:17:44) klhrevolutionist: I say firefox. But if the new composer brings the weight up to what it would be if we kept mozilla in then there is no need to change browsers.
(17:18:43) HueyNym: I was also thinking that with firefox we could add some of the XUL extensions in lieu of some aps....
(17:18:48) NathanF: I had GtkMoz working with Firefox, but that was with a --disable-static --enable-shared build that was wayyyy to large.
(17:19:21) Pizzasgood left the room (quit: Remote closed the connection).
(17:19:28) raffyMn: my only criterion about browser is WYSIWYG editing support - all 3 (moz,ffox,opera) can do this
(17:19:28) stacia: does that chubby puppy one include firefox
(17:19:40) NathanF: HueyNym-yes, some of the extensions would be useful.
(17:19:57) NathanF: stacia-no, it includes Mozilla Suite.
(17:19:58) klhrevolutionist: Agrees with raffy
(17:20:34) HueyNym: I've got my notes for this on quicknotes for ff and I'm using Chatzilla as my irc client right now...
(17:20:37) Pizzasgood [n=Pizzasgo@adsl-156-21-115.asm.bellsouth.net] entered the room.
(17:20:43) Pizzasgood: Sorry bout that
(17:20:51) NathanF: There is a well liked developer extension for Firefox, it could probably be used.
(17:20:53) Pizzasgood: I gues I shouldn't click that button...
(17:20:56) stacia: I would vote for FF too even though I probably have no say in the matter :)
(17:21:07) NathanF: stacia-of course you do
(17:21:20) NathanF: we're not an exclusive club here
(17:21:27) Pizzasgood: Everyone gets a say.
(17:21:28) Pizzasgood: That'
(17:21:35) stacia: Oh I thought you people were all official
(17:21:36) Pizzasgood: s the point of a community iso
(17:22:08) NathanF: My personal goal is just to keep Puppy easy to use, small, and fast.
(17:22:15) slapshot [n=slapshot@host205-215.pool877.interbusiness.it] entered the room.
(17:22:23) Pizzasgood: Same here
(17:22:26) HueyNym: but, as I've said, there are users who can't boot gecko browsers, so we have to have at least dillo, if not links (yeech)
(17:22:28) staci1 [n=Stacia@141.140.127.147] entered the room.
(17:22:29) stacia left the room (quit: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
(17:22:33) staci1: whoops
(17:22:43) NathanF: I've got a nice build of Firefox in an iso and it's running nice and snappy for me.
(17:22:44) staci1: I don't get why FF isn't in the chubby distro if it's already chubby
(17:22:49) raffyMn: good point, Huey
(17:23:08) NathanF: I'll come over to the Firefox Camp for Puppy 109.
(17:23:20) staci1: when is puppy 109 coming out?
(17:23:44) NathanF: good question.
(17:23:47) Pizzasgood: When we make it, I guess
(17:24:05) staci1: Oh okay I was just wondering because if it's coming out tomorrow or something I should be prepared
(17:24:08) SitHeelSpeak [n=SitHeelS@66.243.212.169] entered the room.
(17:24:10) staci1: Can I ask a really silly question
(17:24:35) TedDog [n=TedDog@cpe-24-174-131-168.satx.res.rr.com] entered the room.
(17:24:52) HueyNym: welcome to the meeting guys
(17:24:54) NathanF: Hello, TD.
(17:24:59) TedDog: Hay
(17:25:03) raffyMn: maybe Ted has something to say about the browser
(17:25:13) NathanF: Please do, Ted.
(17:25:26) NathanF: Lots of votes for Firefox so far
(17:25:29) TedDog: What has been said?
(17:25:39) slapshot: hi everybody
(17:25:41) TedDog: seamonkey?
(17:26:07) NathanF: A few votes for Seamonkey, but by way of proxy.
(17:26:11) SitHeelSpeak: I just now got Puppy 2 running. SeaMonkey doesn't seem to support mousewheel autoscroll.
(17:26:16) NathanF: They PM'd me.
(17:26:30) NathanF: Hi slapshot.
(17:26:31) TedDog: Does for me
(17:26:39) SitHeelSpeak: How?
(17:26:42) NathanF: Sit-does for me, too.
(17:26:50) slapshot: wow there is the cream of puppy forum here ;)
(17:26:53) TedDog: up/down
(17:27:03) NathanF: Ever sideways?
(17:27:18) SitHeelSpeak: No, I mean click the mousewheel button to produce the compass-rose.
(17:27:38) TedDog: Yeah that doesnt happen
(17:27:38) HueyNym: does it autoscroll is 109?
(17:28:00) NathanF: Ted, straight up what browser do you think we should go with, and why.
(17:28:23) SitHeelSpeak: In 1.0.8 I was using Firefox. That has autoscroll. But SeaMonkey in P2 calls up pages much faster than FF.
(17:28:23) TedDog: SeaMonkey
(17:29:42) NathanF: Understood, but we have a near landslide of sentiment going towards Firefox. Convince us.
(17:29:52) raffyMn: if we build a FF into 1.09, other people can try building seamonkey into it later :)
(17:30:08) NathanF: Raffy, yes.
(17:30:11) TedDog: SEAMONKEY SEAMONKEY!!
(17:30:14) NathanF: and I might.
(17:30:16) raffyMn: LOL
(17:30:30) HueyNym: Yes, but WHY, Ted?
(17:30:52) TedDog: Because its not Oprah
(17:31:16) raffyMn: ?
(17:31:27) HueyNym: will it run on my P133?
(17:31:45) NathanF: Because it will smooth the transition to Puppy2. Because it has a nice WYSIWYG editor. Because it is probably what Barry would do. Because it's different.
(17:32:20) NathanF: HueyNym-you know good and well that it won't. But neither will Firefox, so what's your point?
(17:32:24) TedDog: Yeah those things
(17:32:39) Pizzasgood: It also has "monkey" in its name. Much like how I like Tango icons because of the "T"....
(17:32:40) HueyNym: NathanF: are those your reasons or Ted's?
(17:33:00) TedDog: Nathan read my mind
(17:33:08) NathanF: Ted wasn't speaking up. Those are the obvious reasons.
(17:33:32) TedDog: Texans Rule!!!
(17:33:32) slapshot: go bed guys :) too late here in Italy . nigth all
(17:33:43) NathanF: I'm open, and have already given my support to Firefox. Sorry Ted.
(17:33:44) klhrevolutionist: night
(17:33:50) HueyNym: I agree - I was just wondering why others thought so
(17:33:51) klhrevolutionist: So FF it is ?
(17:33:54) slapshot left the room.
(17:33:56) SitHeelSpeak: bon journo slapshot
(17:34:07) Pizzasgood: I've never used Seamonkey. How does it compare to firefox in terms of speed?
(17:34:09) SitHeelSpeak: er, I mean buon soir?
(17:34:18) TedDog: Ok fine, bye S...
(17:34:27) NathanF: Yes, I beleive so. I think it will be Firefox.
(17:34:35) TedDog: Chow
(17:34:40) SitHeelSpeak: Pizzasgood: SeaMonkey calls up pages quite a bit faster than Firefox.
(17:34:54) Pizzasgood: I changed my vote to Seamonkey
(17:35:10) NathanF: Don't you walk out on us just because of this, Okay Ted?
(17:35:19) NathanF: Pizzasgood, ?
(17:35:21) Pizzasgood: Sonic the Hedgehod is my mascot for a reason
(17:35:35) HueyNym: you're still outnumbered - it's FF
(17:35:55) Pizzasgood: But now my concience is satisfied.
(17:36:08) TedDog: SLAM..... gummble
(17:36:31) NathanF: Yes, it's Firefox. Everyone who wanted to had a say, so I feel no guilt.
(17:37:05) NathanF: Now that that's decided, are we replacing Beaver with geany.
(17:37:13) HueyNym: There, there, I tell you what... I'll see what I can do about trying to get seamonkey into Puppy 2... :)
(17:37:14) TedDog: Ok fine!
(17:37:17) Pizzasgood: Yes PLEASE
(17:37:31) Pizzasgood: I mean about Geany
(17:37:49) SitHeelSpeak: HueyNym: SeaMonkey IS in Puppy 2. I'm running it right now.
(17:38:03) NathanF: Sit, he knows.
(17:38:07) TedDog: me too snif, snif
(17:38:08) SitHeelSpeak: Oh.
(17:38:09) NathanF: haha
(17:38:38) klhrevolutionist: I say leafpad for all!!
(17:38:52) SitHeelSpeak: Leafpad is good.
(17:38:54) klhrevolutionist: It is lightweight and provides basic functions for pups.
(17:38:56) NathanF: Ted-you can do a Seamonkey based Grafpup with my blessings.
(17:39:05) raffyMn left the room.
(17:39:11) TedDog: I just need a hexeditor
(17:39:14) Pizzasgood: Leaves eventually change color. Soon you will wish on the geany...
(17:39:16) klhrevolutionist: Experienced user's will find no trouble in downloading an unleashed or compiling themselves.
(17:39:19) HueyNym: although I really hate to say "replace" since beaver weighs in at 27k and geany is 576k, but still...
(17:40:25) NathanF: I'm in favor of keeping Leafpad in and making it default. But I think Geany can fill a role well as a second editor, actually as an IDE.
(17:40:45) NathanF: HueyNym-good point touche`
(17:40:52) HueyNym: speaking of which, it's up to version 8.9 now...
(17:41:04) klhrevolutionist: I agree with Nathan rid the menu of text editors 2 is enough.
(17:41:11) Pizzasgood: Leafpad is small, so keeping it along with Geany is no problem
(17:41:13) TedDog: Agreed
(17:41:40) NathanF: Okay, Leafpad is the new default editor. Do we want a second one?
(17:41:41) HueyNym: leafpad and geany are my choices as well
(17:41:59) NathanF: And if so, is it Geany then?
(17:41:59) Pizzasgood: I want two more. Geany and MP
(17:42:04) klhrevolutionist: lol
(17:42:08) HueyNym: or nano
(17:42:16) NathanF: Pizzasgood-understood.
(17:42:27) TedDog: What about TED I always liked it
(17:42:43) TedDog: just joking
(17:42:47) NathanF: I think we can keep a console editor around.
(17:42:54) klhrevolutionist: errr.....
(17:42:56) NathanF: This is Linux after all
(17:43:01) Pizzasgood: Okay, because I didn't really like TED.
(17:43:06) klhrevolutionist: Does anyone really use them though ?
(17:43:10) Pizzasgood: I do
(17:43:18) HueyNym: sometime you NEED them
(17:43:21) klhrevolutionist: console editor ? You do ?
(17:43:28) Pizzasgood: X isn't bulletproof
(17:43:36) NathanF: Only those who stuff up thier system so bad it's the only way to recover, haha
(17:43:39) TedDog: rearly
(17:43:40) klhrevolutionist: It has been for me.
(17:43:41) HueyNym: Just this morning
(17:43:56) Pizzasgood: It's either MP or chroot into Vector to run X
(17:44:03) Pizzasgood: MP is easier
(17:44:10) klhrevolutionist: So now we are up to 3 ?
(17:44:14) klhrevolutionist: ...
(17:44:18) TedDog: VI?
(17:44:18) Pizzasgood: We've always had MP
(17:44:33) NathanF: Alright, we keep Leafpad, make it default, keep MP, ande add Geany.
(17:44:50) NathanF: Puppy's VI is just a Busybox applet.
(17:44:54) Pizzasgood: We like Puppy to be good for new linux users, and Vi isn't good for new linux users
(17:44:58) HueyNym: or vi unless you'd rather go with NANO... anyone here like nano?
(17:45:00) NathanF: We'll have that regardless.
(17:45:14) TedDog: cool I'm good toss out MP
(17:45:23) NathanF: Huey, I like it but haven't explored it for Puppy.
(17:46:09) HueyNym: let me see how big it is - hang on
(17:46:10) klhrevolutionist: What is next Nathan ?
(17:46:19) klhrevolutionist: oops.
(17:46:56) NathanF: Icons, background, and WM. More hot tempers sure to ensue.
(17:47:48) NathanF: I like the new background in Puppy2. It even made Lobster cry a little.
(17:48:07) HueyNym: let's steal that one
(17:48:09) klhrevolutionist: I have not seen it ?
(17:48:09) SitHeelSpeak: Yeah, it's pretty. Too bad it isn't animated.
(17:48:26) SitHeelSpeak: Waves rolling in would be killer.
(17:48:38) HueyNym: would THAT run on my P133?
(17:48:43) TedDog: ftp://puppylinux.net/incoming/p109∞
(17:48:47) NathanF: I'm sure there's an enlightenment theme that could do it.
(17:48:55) TedDog:
(17:48:56) SitHeelSpeak: REALLY???
(17:49:22) TedDog: link to picture
(17:49:30) NathanF: I've seen Fire and I've seen Rain. Well, snow that is.
(17:49:51) HueyNym: thanks
(17:49:53) Pizzasgood: I've made fire. Rain unmade it
(17:49:53) TedDog: Up NORTH
(17:50:10) klhrevolutionist: So we are now dealing with backgrounds ? If so, then I agree with the mob.
(17:50:14) Pizzasgood: And I built my throne out of snow
(17:50:30) TedDog: frozen pizza
(17:50:49) Pizzasgood: I don't really have an opinion on the background, because I'll probably change it immediately.
(17:51:02) NathanF: Of course you will. I will too.
(17:51:11) TedDog: Dido,
(17:51:34) NathanF: Lets go with that one, if no objections. Barry's all but approved it as official anyhow.
(17:51:39) Pizzasgood: I need to go eat. I'll be back when I get done
(17:52:08) Pizzasgood: My vote on icons is to either slightly improve or use tango
(17:52:10) rarsa [n=root@CPE0006259ad199-CM00080d242e42.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] entered the room.
(17:52:12) HueyNym: but we want one that will WOW the new user into clicking those icons for Barry!!!
(17:52:30) NathanF: Icons guys. Which ones, and how far do we want to go with it?
(17:52:36) staci1: You guys are talking about new icons and background ands tuff?
(17:52:38) NathanF: Hi Rarsa.
(17:52:42) rarsa: Hi NathanF
(17:52:59) rarsa: I see that you've started a few minutes earlier :)
(17:53:07) NathanF: staci-yes. We're going to beautify Puppy a little.
(17:53:22) NathanF: rarsa-almost an hour ago.
(17:53:29) HueyNym: 22h00UTC
(17:53:31) NathanF: welcome.
(17:53:33) staci1 is now known as stacia
(17:53:44) stacia: How much can I change the appearance of puppy
(17:53:53) rarsa: Oh, yes, this computer has the wrong time. OK, So, let's continue
(17:54:01) NathanF: stacia-uunlimited potential.
(17:54:03) stacia: because my dad is going to make fun of me if I have an OS called puppy because I don't like dogs
(17:54:14) stacia: can I change it so it looks like Kitten Linux
(17:54:26) rarsa: Not THAT much ;)
(17:54:32) stacia: noooo!!
(17:54:52) SitHeelSpeak: Hmm. I just found a glitch in SeaMonkey. When I tried to enter the URL for the P2 background...
(17:55:01) SitHeelSpeak: when I tried to Alt-Tab back here...
(17:55:06) NathanF: rarsa-we've decided to use Firefox (pissing off Ted in the process) and we're also adding Geany and removing Beaver. Leafpad will be default.
(17:55:18) klhrevolutionist: Let's leave the graphics to Nathan F.
(17:55:20) SitHeelSpeak: SeaMonkey wouldn't let me until I'd hit Enter in SeaMonkey's URL bar.
(17:55:36) NathanF: klh-please no.
(17:55:42) rarsa: Fine, I only use Geany.
(17:55:44) NathanF: I've got enough.
(17:56:05) rarsa: What about those nice graphs that the daughther of (I don't remember who) made
(17:56:09) HueyNym: if you have enough, we should give you more :)
(17:56:10) rarsa: those looked really professional
(17:56:12) klhrevolutionist: Ok then I nominate bombayrockers for graphics.
(17:56:19) NathanF: Okay, icons.
(17:56:26) rarsa: But we never took advantage of the offer
(17:56:32) klhrevolutionist: crystal clear look
(17:56:42) NathanF: I'd like to nominate Bombay as well, but he's not here.
(17:57:10) HueyNym: That's HIS problem for not being here! :)
(17:57:49) NathanF: Alright I'm going to nudge some more. We have a few leaning towards Tango icons. We could also use crystalsvg (from KDE)
(17:58:00) NathanF: Or just change a few for the desktop.
(17:58:11) klhrevolutionist: Change the whole kaboodle.
(17:58:16) klhrevolutionist: crystalsvg
(17:58:31) NathanF: My vote also.
(17:58:37) rarsa: Actually I would prefer if these are custom icons
(17:58:44) rarsa: instead of 'of the shelf'
(17:58:45) klhrevolutionist: lol
(17:59:01) NathanF: I changed Grafpup to Tango to be different, I don't want Puppy to look like Grafpup.
(17:59:09) HueyNym: crystal are nice, so are everaldo or Tango or freedesktop or noia
(17:59:38) NathanF: Anyone here want to take charge of icons?
(17:59:46) NathanF: I can designate.
(18:00:13) klhrevolutionist: ....... It got quite.
(18:00:22) NathanF: yeeesss.........
(18:00:43) Rh1no [n=chatzill@nr22-69-61-147-225.fuse.net] entered the room.
(18:01:08) NathanF: Hi rhino.
(18:01:12) Rh1no: hello
(18:01:19) rarsa: Would it be a good idea to contact psr1 and ask if his daughter is still interested on helping with the icons?
http://www.murga.org/~puppy/viewtopic.php?p=16984#16984∞
(18:01:46) NathanF: Rhino-we've decided to use Firefox (pissing off Ted in the process) and we're also adding Geany and removing Beaver. Leafpad will be default.
(18:02:09) NathanF: Also adding the wallpaper from Puppy2-current.
(18:02:09) klhrevolutionist: I agree with rarsa. It is worth a try.
(18:02:11) Rh1no: k, thx for the summary :-)
(18:02:21) NathanF: klh-me too.
(18:02:34) NathanF: Let's contact her and sit on this for a bit.
(18:02:46) NathanF: Next decision. WM.
(18:02:51) klhrevolutionist: icewm
(18:02:52) HueyNym: but in the meanwhile...
(18:03:15) rarsa: There are several threads with people willing to participate creating or cleaning up icons. They may not be here, but if we approach them they may actually say yes.
(18:03:30) rarsa: WM I think that we should stay with JWM for the default
(18:03:35) NathanF: HueyNym-in the meanwhile we can release an alpha with a few nicer ones on the desktop.
(18:04:28) HueyNym: another one for icewm
(18:04:31) klhrevolutionist: If not icewm then oroborus-wm and fbpanel
(18:04:33) NathanF: I'm in favor of either JWM or ICEWM. JWM is smaller and is quickly becoming stable.
(18:04:41) stacia left the room (quit: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
(18:04:54) NathanF: Icewm already is stable, on the other hand.
(18:05:02) HueyNym: exactly
(18:05:16) NathanF: One thing with Icewm.
(18:05:29) rarsa: There haven't been any complains about JWM as the default, and to keep the puppy in RAM every bit counts
(18:05:41) HueyNym: the thousands of themes I have?
(18:06:34) NathanF: Barry is in the habit of creating symlinks from one program to another. This shows up as extra entries in the Icewm menu. You can't imagine how many packages I had to clean up to fix this in Grafpup. It wasn't pretty.
(18:06:37) klhrevolutionist: I say we have a forum vote for wm
(18:06:55) Rh1no: that sounds like a good idea
(18:07:19) HueyNym: Vista
(18:07:25) Rh1no: that way everyone can weigh in
(18:07:27) HueyNym: opps :)
(18:07:53) NathanF: Any more thoughts on WM?
(18:08:05) rarsa: Yes.
(18:08:11) NathanF: go ahead.
(18:08:42) HueyNym: there were others that were small and configurable weren't there?
(18:08:48) rarsa: WOuld you think that this is a good opportunity to introduce the freedesktop standard menus on the WM to avoid the menu nightmare?
(18:08:51) HueyNym: fluxbox?
(18:09:50) NathanF: rarsa-this uses the .desktop file, right?
(18:09:53) rarsa: (I mean the XDG menues)
(18:09:54) rarsa: yes
(18:09:56) klhrevolutionist: Yes I agree with rarsa on the freedesktop.
(18:10:10) Pizzasgood: I'm back and up do date. I vote IceWM.
(18:10:25) NathanF: Problem is that most of the unleashed packages currently have the .desktop file stripped out.
(18:10:29) rarsa: It may be more than we can chew, as dotpups should be updated, but at least plant the seed
(18:10:33) TedDog: I'm back as well
(18:11:21) NathanF: rarsa-I think planting the seed would be good, but let's do it slowly if there's a way to do so.
(18:11:29) rarsa: Yes, there is.
(18:11:42) NathanF: As in not scrap what's already there.
(18:11:50) rarsa: In JWM and ICEWM and Xfce, etc. both can coexist
(18:12:06) NathanF: Okay, can you take charge of it?
(18:12:09) TedDog: XFCE confuses me
(18:12:13) Pizzasgood: I think we should go ahead with the seedy business. I've liked it from what I've heard about it.
(18:12:29) Pizzasgood: I'm "using" xfce right now.
(18:12:40) HueyNym: it's so .... CLEAN looking...
(18:13:13) NathanF: we're going to shelve the WM issue and take a vote on the forum, guys.
(18:13:14) TedDog: I Vote Icewm
(18:13:15) rarsa: The main issue I see is with the 'versioning' of the packages. People with pre1.0.9 would require packages that modify the menu. people with post 1.0.9 could use both
(18:13:26) Pizzasgood: I found the setting stuff in /usr/share/apps, and when I tried changing the gtk theme it exited X, which is why I lost my connection earlier
(18:13:59) NathanF: rarsa-can you make it work?
(18:14:40) rarsa: Yes. Actually it's working. the main issue as I said before is agreement on start building the packages with the .desktop files.
(18:15:20) NathanF: I've started putting them into packages I create. Let's spread the word and make it happen.
(18:15:30) rarsa: OK.
(18:15:52) NathanF: All of you here have been warned.
(18:16:04) NathanF: Don't remove the .desktop files.
(18:16:05) rarsa: I'll create an unleashed for that so we can pull it in or out as we see fit closer to the release
(18:16:28) NathanF: The mattress tag police will come after you.
(18:16:37) PupUserMU [n=PupUserM@c194161.adsl.hansenet.de] entered the room.
(18:16:38) NathanF: rarsa-good.
(18:16:46) NathanF: Hi MU
(18:16:58) TedDog: Hay Moo
(18:17:01) PupUserMU: hihi, sorry just woke up
(18:17:01) SitHeelSpeak: Hi MU
(18:17:11) PupUserMU: Mooo ;=
(18:17:17) PupUserMU: ;)
(18:17:32) NathanF: quick transcript
(18:17:35) rarsa: OK, next topic?
(18:17:59) TedDog: I'm not pissed off
(18:18:00) NathanF: Firefox in, Geany in, Beaver out, Freedesktop transition started.
(18:18:06) rarsa: We've added 'a vote for WM' and 'Initail intention to include XDG menus'
(18:18:08) NathanF: Ted, good.
(18:18:51) Pizzasgood: We're going to notify psr1's daughter about icons, and my supper is eaten.
(18:18:52) NathanF: Next topic, ROX.
(18:19:04) NathanF: I'm not currently in favor of upgrading it.
(18:19:11) klhrevolutionist: Keep the same rox-filer and add better icons and theme.
(18:19:14) NathanF: Sorry guys.
(18:19:26) NathanF: klh-yes.
(18:19:26) klhrevolutionist: Agrees with Nathan.
(18:19:30) rarsa: Neither am I. but I'm in favour of updating the icons in ROX. Guesttoo posted nicer icons
(18:19:47) PupUserMU: yes, I use rox 1.2 too after trying 2.x
(18:20:03) NathanF: they should match the system theme. Whatever we choose that to be.
(18:20:05) Raven149 [n=theonlyr@user-1662.wfd84b.dsl.pol.co.uk] entered the room.
(18:20:09) rarsa: 1.2 is quite nicelly integrated in Puppy
(18:20:18) PupUserMU: yep rarsa
(18:20:23) TedDog: Agreed
(18:20:41) klhrevolutionist: How about that no disagreements ?
(18:20:48) klhrevolutionist: Nice.
(18:20:52) Pizzasgood: I like Rox 2.2
(18:20:56) TedDog: OHHHHH
(18:21:12) Pizzasgood: But I can agree with 1.2
(18:21:15) Pizzasgood: It's zippier
(18:21:17) NathanF: Yes, and DVW wants it in because it works better with the updated trash.
(18:21:25) HueyNym: that's a statement, not a disagreement
(18:21:25) TedDog: whewwwww
(18:21:35) rarsa: And I would vote for "If we decide to add something, we balance with a trade off to remove something else"
(18:21:38) Raven149 is now known as TheRaven
(18:21:44) Pizzasgood: 2.2 also supports SVG icons
(18:21:47) NathanF: rarsa-agreed.
(18:22:03) TheRaven is now known as RavenOne
(18:22:11) NathanF: With the move to Firefox we do have a little latitude, though.
(18:22:23) NathanF: Not much, so don't go crazy.
(18:22:42) rarsa: Pizzasgood: I tried it some time ago and found that it required some work to have it as nicelly integrated as 1.2, if we go with 2.2 someone would have to make sure it's nicelly integrated
(18:22:43) HueyNym: but, but 2.47 is, like, the COOLEST
(18:23:10) rarsa: but doesn't 2.4 require python? (I've just installed it on Fedora)
(18:23:23) klhrevolutionist: Well you all are outvoted, the mob chooses the orginal rox!! :)
(18:23:40) Pizzasgood: No python that I know of
(18:23:59) Pizzasgood: That's right, it's on 2.4 now.
(18:24:01) PupUserMU: in the board, I saw nobody yet even using 50% of the potential of rox1
(18:24:02) HueyNym: again, all just statements.... :)
(18:24:18) NathanF: I would agree to 2.4 on two conditions. Hack the code as per 1.2 to have an "open with" menu, and create a new background setter that can handle bot xli and the pinboard.
(18:24:47) edr4rd [n=edr4d@cpe-71-72-33-148.neo.res.rr.com] entered the room.
(18:25:06) NathanF: rarsa-python is required by many ROX panel applets, if running a full-blown ROX desktop. Doesn't apply to us.
(18:25:13) Pizzasgood: All we'd have to do if we used Rox 2.4 is have it edit the puppypin file
(18:25:30) Pizzasgood: Then rox would dominate the desktop: Icons AND wallpaper
(18:25:59) klhrevolutionist: What is the weight difference ?
(18:26:04) NathanF: pizzasgood-except when someone goes and installs Aterm for a transparent background, or Fluxbox for transparent titlebars and menus.
(18:26:14) Pizzasgood: Oh
(18:26:18) HueyNym: OR.... rox would HANDLE the deskto icons and wallpaper
(18:26:19) rarsa: OK
(18:26:21) klhrevolutionist: Most people do use aterm......
(18:26:26) PupUserMU: the backgroundsetter of rox 2x. from bombayrockers prettypup is incompatible with enlightenment :(
(18:26:54) NathanF: I'm still in favor of 1.2. Shall we vote on it here?
(18:27:06) PupUserMU: so I switched back.
(18:27:10) HueyNym: so are we replacing rxvt with aterm now?
(18:27:10) Pizzasgood: I modified the background setter from 1.0.8 to work with Rox 2.4, so that's still fine
(18:27:23) rarsa: I'd say 1.2 until some one can integrate 2.4 nicelly.
(18:27:24) NathanF: no, no aterm right now.
(18:27:26) TedDog: Table and hashout
(18:27:28) HueyNym: we already did - it's 1.2
(18:27:44) PupUserMU: Enlightenment uses transparency, that rox can't handle
(18:27:45) rarsa: What I mean is 'let's integrate it when it's ready'
(18:27:56) NathanF: Okay, settled?
(18:28:01) klhrevolutionist: NO
(18:28:13) NathanF: klh-speak
(18:28:23) puppy64x2 left the room.
(18:28:25) klhrevolutionist: If we are breaking in xdg menu. Then let us at least give pizza a chance.....
(18:28:39) NathanF: give pizza a chance.........
(18:28:47) NathanF: all we are saying.
(18:28:49) Pizzasgood: I'm not really fighting for 2.4
(18:28:55) NathanF: is give pizza a chance.
(18:28:55) rarsa: That was my point klhrevolutionist. If someone can integrate it nicelly then we can discuss it, but not before
(18:29:26) Pizzasgood: I was just eliminating the background argument
(18:29:28) PupUserMU: all we are saaaying... lalala...
(18:29:48) NathanF: pizzasgood-can you integrate it to handle the transparency issue, and keep the package weight down?
(18:29:50) HueyNym: (everyone holding hands in a big circle)
(18:30:31) Pizzasgood: It does the exact same thing that the default background setter does, but it also makes Rox 2.4 agree with it.
(18:30:45) NathanF: I'm lost.
(18:31:16) TedDog: Houston we have a problem
(18:31:26) Pizzasgood: It has Puppy set the desktop how he normally does, then sets Rox 2.4 to the same desktop so they match
(18:31:42) NathanF: yes, that was what I was asking earlier.
(18:31:45) klhrevolutionist: Pizzasgood, we are asking can you make it happen ?
(18:31:53) Pizzasgood: It did happen
(18:32:03) Pizzasgood: It was called MoBetta-WallpaperSetta
(18:32:09) NathanF: What about size. Can it happen without bloat.
(18:32:20) Pizzasgood: It's a simple text file
(18:32:30) Pizzasgood: I just modified Barry's shell script
(18:32:42) NathanF: I'm talking about ROX-2.4, not MoBetta
(18:32:42) PupUserMU: Rox uses a borderless window as background, that makes it problematic...
(18:32:45) rarsa: OK, can you prepare an unleashed package?
(18:33:00) Pizzasgood: Oh, I see
(18:33:26) Pizzasgood: Possibly
(18:33:29) RavenOne left the room (quit: ).
(18:33:32) rarsa: (stripped down and configured to be the default)
(18:33:52) Pizzasgood: I got it to work before (Pizzapup 1.0.5), so I should be able to do it again.
(18:33:59) NathanF: pizzasgood-Assuming we went with 2.4 would you take charge of the package?
(18:34:05) Pizzasgood: Sure
(18:34:24) NathanF: What say the rest of you, give Pizza a chance?
(18:34:28) Pizzasgood: I don't know how big it is, just so were clear on that
(18:34:33) klhrevolutionist: ?
(18:34:41) PupUserMU: yes, and look at the result then
(18:34:55) rarsa: Perfect
(18:35:02) klhrevolutionist: Agrees with MU
(18:35:09) NathanF: Do it. Create the package and we'll evaluate the results.
(18:35:10) Pizzasgood: I say let's count on 1.2, and if I get 2.4 going we can switch
(18:35:15) Pizzasgood: Okay
(18:35:16) TedDog: good
(18:35:35) NathanF: Now, I think that's all the tough decisions.
(18:35:42) NathanF: Any that we missed?
(18:35:56) TedDog: BarryK
(18:35:57) rarsa: I want to throw a curve ball
(18:36:12) NathanF: rarsa-go ahead
(18:36:13) Pizzasgood: I prefer soccar
(18:36:19) HueyNym: I wanted to say something about compiling source
(18:36:20) PupUserMU: someone posts a transscript for the longsleepers please?
(18:36:38) rarsa: We've mostly talked about cosmetics (no, I'm not bh ) but what about the substance. the scripts.
(18:36:51) klhrevolutionist: Like what ?
(18:37:08) rarsa: I want to integrate the ndiswrapper installation on the network wizard but it only works if you have perl
(18:37:21) Pizzasgood: So add perl
(18:37:26) Pizzasgood: :)
(18:37:34) rarsa: so, It won't work out of the box without the usr_devx.sfs
(18:37:36) HueyNym: that we remember to use the "-strip" option when possible
(18:37:36) Pizzasgood: I use NDISwrapper too
(18:37:36) PupUserMU: does my miniperl-dotpup is sufficient?
(18:37:59) rarsa: I don't know, I can try.
(18:38:12) PupUserMU: it is 1-2 mb, i also could add missing modules
(18:38:18) rarsa: does your miniperl-dotpup conflict with the one in usr-devx?
(18:38:22) NathanF: MU-partial transcript on the new forum.
(18:38:35) PupUserMU: thanks nathan.
(18:38:46) PupUserMU: No, it is taken from usr_devx
(18:38:52) klhrevolutionist: Nathan, what about getting rid of redundant menu items. Those symlinks you mentioned ?
(18:39:07) rarsa: Is there something on the 'suggestions for 1.0.9 thread that we can discuss next time?
(18:39:15) PupUserMU: just the absolute minimum plus a gtk-wrapper
(18:39:40) rarsa: OK, I'll play with it MU.
(18:39:56) NathanF: I want to do some test builds with what we have so far before trying to add something else.
(18:40:07) NathanF: There may be room.
(18:40:08) PupUserMU: ok. tell me if you get errors in the console like xxx.pm not found
(18:40:09) rarsa: When do you want the first one? next friday?
(18:40:18) klhrevolutionist: I agree. But what about getting rid of apps ?
(18:40:33) TedDog: like game
(18:40:33) PupUserMU: when you are ready.
(18:40:42) HueyNym: we dumped a whole 27k!!! what more do you want???
(18:41:05) NathanF: We dumped a little more than that, by going with Firefox.
(18:41:13) rarsa: sorry MU, the 'when do you want the first one?" was for NathanF, talking about the test builds
(18:41:31) PupUserMU: ah ok, sorry rarsa :)
(18:41:33) NathanF: rarsa-I actually meant test iso
(18:41:44) klhrevolutionist: Ok I gotta cook dinner. But I call for a restructuring of the menu.
(18:41:50) rarsa: Yes, when are you planning to do the first test iso?
(18:41:53) klhrevolutionist: Take it easy and have fun.
(18:41:56) klhrevolutionist left the room.
(18:42:13) NathanF: But I am very interested in gettting networking straightened out a little better.
(18:43:03) NathanF: I've got an iso now, but wasn't planning a release until after we met so it could reflect the whole communities feelings.
(18:43:20) TedDog: wow
(18:43:28) HueyNym: and are you planning to post it??
(18:43:33) Pizzasgood: From what you said about it earlier, it sounds like it already matches a good bit
(18:43:43) NathanF: There is also a snapshot of current changes, so you can roll your own.
(18:43:59) NathanF: pizzasgood-I try.
(18:44:12) NathanF: Huey-soon.
(18:44:21) HueyNym: tease
(18:44:29) NathanF: A few bugfixes should be incorporated.
(18:44:30) TedDog: Hurry -soon
(18:44:49) NathanF: Okay, that brings me to a progress report.
(18:44:56) PupUserMU: the timesetter must be updated
(18:45:11) NathanF: I've fixed libxpm, as per MU's fix.
(18:45:21) PupUserMU: http://dotpups.de/puppy-releases/1.0.8r1/bugfixes/set-time-for-puppy.pup∞
(18:45:25) NathanF: I've added the updated trashcan
(18:45:42) NathanF: I've added the latest release of the networking wizard
(18:46:17) NathanF: I've compiled Firefox-1.5.0.1 and packaged it, with Puppy bookmarks
(18:46:33) NathanF: A bug in the Geany package is fixed
(18:46:54) Rh1no: will you include chatzilla with it or leave GAIM set to take users to the IRC channel?
(18:46:55) NathanF: All references to 108 are changed to 109
(18:47:17) NathanF: Lots more todo, bug wise.
(18:47:31) PupUserMU: fine, good work :)
(18:47:44) NathanF: At least three of you here have access to the tree I set up.
(18:47:54) NathanF: Feel free to make changes
(18:47:58) HueyNym: chatzilla weighs in at 289k versus Xchat 1.8 476k
(18:47:59) NathanF: just log them
(18:48:20) PupUserMU: ok
(18:48:35) NathanF: Assignments
(18:48:50) rarsa: Where is the bug list? is it on the development forum? (I haven't been there)
(18:48:52) Pizzasgood: Oh no! More homework!
(18:48:55) NathanF: Pizzasgood, get us a test package of ROX-2.4 ASAP
(18:49:26) NathanF: MU-improve the squashfile gui you're working on, we may add it
(18:49:47) NathanF: Rino-what can be done for multisession?
(18:49:52) PupUserMU: what o want improved?
(18:50:18) NathanF: Did you get my last post on the topic?
(18:50:44) PupUserMU: i will check the forum, we can discuss it there
(18:50:48) NathanF: OK
(18:51:00) NathanF: Rhino-multisession
(18:51:20) NathanF: what changes do you propose?
(18:52:59) Rh1no: I don't use multisession that much
(18:53:15) rarsa left the room (quit: "Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/").
(18:53:18) NathanF: Sorry-I got confi=used.
(18:53:22) Rh1no: I can test it if you like
(18:53:37) NathanF: TedDog-same question.
(18:53:46) TedDog: Hehe he he
(18:53:53) NathanF: I just badgered Rhino for no good reason
(18:54:06) TedDog: Make him explain
(18:54:06) Rh1no: I have thick skin ;-)
(18:54:13) NathanF: sorry
(18:54:15) rarsa [n=root@CPE0006259ad199-CM00080d242e42.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] entered the room.
(18:54:25) HueyNym: breadcrumbs :)
(18:54:38) rarsa: (What did I miss?)
(18:54:49) Pizzasgood: Just some mistaken identities
(18:54:51) TedDog: Barry is putting in part of the ideas in the latest news topic
(18:55:23) NathanF: Yes, can that be ported over to our project?
(18:55:26) TedDog: Choice on skipping over multisession
(18:55:31) TedDog: Not directly
(18:55:39) TedDog: It is not that hard
(18:56:00) NathanF: Are you willing to take charge of it?
(18:56:03) TedDog: yes
(18:56:28) NathanF: I can give you write access to the development tree then.
(18:56:36) NathanF: I'll PM you later
(18:56:52) TedDog: Thanks I'll readd you as admin
(18:57:26) TedDog: your new password is SEAMONKEY all caps
(18:57:44) NathanF: thanks
(18:57:51) TedDog: no problem
(18:57:52) NathanF: haha
(18:57:57) PupUserMU: g*
(18:58:02) NathanF: FIREFOX, TED
(18:58:40) NathanF: Okay, klh mentioned menu cleanup.
(18:58:48) HueyNym: what a barrell you guys are!
(18:58:55) NathanF: Any thought? Any takers?
(18:59:44) PupUserMU: I use a german menu
(19:00:02) PupUserMU: I made a dotpup to translate existing menus
(19:00:04) NathanF: I like the way he integrated the additional software downloader, BTW.
(19:00:15) NathanF: In his latest remaster that is
(19:00:17) HueyNym: and one that self replicates, self automates, and self-translates, too :)
(19:00:21) PupUserMU: and one to convert .jwmrc on the fly to icewm
(19:00:55) NathanF: MU-that code exists in Unleashed already, in the createpuppy script
(19:00:59) rarsa: Yes, I have thoughts on the menu
(19:01:04) NathanF: go ahead
(19:01:25) rarsa: If we use XDG then we can organize the menu however we want, actually we could have several organizations coexsisting.
(19:01:49) rarsa: The main issue I found with menu reorganization is that there were no takers for the task
(19:02:02) NathanF: Yes, a common problem
(19:02:02) SitHeelSpeak: I must go. A pleasure watching you guys work. I bid thee adieu and my heart doth sing.
(19:02:15) PupUserMU: bye sit :)
(19:02:24) SitHeelSpeak left the room (quit: "Leaving").
(19:03:05) NathanF: I want to have something to show soon, so menu reorganization may have to wait.
(19:03:31) PupUserMU: using xdg-menus you also had to rewrite the backup-menus script I think
(19:03:56) NathanF: But please create the XDG package asap, if you haven't already.
(19:03:57) HueyNym: I'm not really even sure what KIND of reorganization you mean, in any case...
(19:04:17) NathanF: Huey-simplification, clarifying
(19:04:46) Pizzasgood: do I need to make a .desktop file deal for Rox-2.4?
(19:05:27) rarsa: what's the 'backup-menu script'?
(19:05:46) NathanF: Pizzasgood-most source tarballs already have the file there, but puppy users commonly throw out such things for size reasons.
(19:05:51) rarsa: Pizzasgood: For each of the apps you want to see in the menu
(19:05:55) NathanF: just keep it if it is there
(19:05:56) HueyNym: I'd say "yes" - but make it LAST
(19:06:17) Pizzasgood: Okay, just wanted to make sure.
(19:06:32) rarsa: No, I haven't create the package just the dotpup, so I will convert it.
(19:06:51) PupUserMU: I think it is used when you remaster a CD. Then puppy backups the Dotpups-submenu, and overwrites the existing menu with a new one, and adds back the Dotpups-submenu. Kind of destructive
(19:06:57) NathanF: Alright, we've gone almost two hours now, so I'm going to bring it to a close pretty soon.
(19:07:02) Pizzasgood: I have the stuff I needed downloaded, so I'll start in on creating my first unleashed package tonight.
(19:07:27) Pizzasgood: I need to go now, though. Bye!
(19:07:34) TedDog: bye
(19:07:36) HueyNym: bye pizza
(19:07:41) Pizzasgood left the room.
(19:07:50) PupUserMU: bye pizza.. don*t (home-)work too much ;)
(19:08:28) NathanF: I'm going to contact Lobster and have him do a write up on all this, and reorganize the bug list as well. Maybe add it to the development forum.
(19:08:42) NathanF: Any other major issues?
(19:09:02) TedDog: Happy Easter
(19:09:16) NathanF: Yes! Happy Easter everyone.
(19:09:17) HueyNym: what about newer versions
(19:09:30) NathanF: Huey-of what?
(19:09:31) HueyNym: and conflicting libraries with older ones
(19:09:42) PupUserMU: This is why I wrote tools, that will just convert (translate) the currently existing .jwmrc. After any "rebuild" of Puppy, you just run the converter again to have your personal changes back.
(19:09:45) NathanF: Ahh, I think I see.
(19:10:18) rarsa: OK, who 'owns' that remaster script?
(19:10:20) rarsa: is it barry?
(19:10:26) HueyNym: I was thinking specifically of slpheed 2.4 for pakt
(19:10:47) PupUserMU: yes, I just added the hack to backup the dotpups-submenu.
(19:11:16) rarsa: Then I don't think it should be a problem
(19:11:36) NathanF: Huey-yes.
(19:11:37) PupUserMU: it is in /usr/sbin I think
(19:11:51) HueyNym: and leafpad 0.8.9
(19:12:06) NathanF: There was an issue with i18n and Sylpheed.
(19:12:12) NathanF: I remember that now.
(19:12:27) rarsa: as I said, I will make it that the old packages that don't know anything about XDG still work as they worked and the new packages get added just by saving the .destop
(19:12:40) NathanF: Is there an issue with the current Leafpad?
(19:12:42) HueyNym: the update creates a huge mess of library conflicts
(19:12:57) PupUserMU: ah, ok. I'm curious on that :)
(19:13:36) HueyNym: the 0.8.9 has better swedish support (Ironic, isn't it)
(19:13:57) NathanF: Huey-I compiled Sylpheed-2.4 no problems. Where are the conflicts?
(19:14:27) NathanF: Or were you talking Leafpad?
(19:14:41) HueyNym: now I'm REALLY depressed :(
(19:14:52) NathanF: sorry
(19:15:09) HueyNym: I got libcairo something errors
(19:15:23) HueyNym: shares not found
(19:15:34) NathanF: with Leafpad or Sylpheed?
(19:15:40) PupUserMU: ./disable --disable-cairo should work
(19:16:03) PupUserMU: ./configure --disable-cairo
(19:16:41) HueyNym: but I've also been having problems configuring anything recently as apparently my gcc isn't sane
(19:16:47) NathanF: Problem with Cairo is that if you're going to use it at all it must be there before GTK2 is compiled
(19:16:58) NathanF: So it's not a straightforward upgrade
(19:17:11) NathanF: Huey-time for a new pupfile
(19:17:48) NathanF: Alright guys, we're well over two hours now
(19:18:00) HueyNym: ah - I'll have to check for freshness dates
(19:18:05) PupUserMU: or ./configure --without-cairo
(19:18:09) NathanF: Can we close the meeting and come back to some of this on the forum?
(19:18:10) HueyNym: ok
(19:18:17) TedDog: OK
(19:18:26) PupUserMU: ko
(19:18:41) PupUserMU: need coffee
(19:18:49) TedDog left the room.
(19:19:06) NathanF: Alright, meeting closed. I'll post a transcript and we can do it again sometime.

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CategoryCommunity