Puppy Linux Foundation Meeting - July 15, 2006

15 July 22:00 GMT Today

Next Meetings

August 12, 2006 22:00 GMT - Start of Week-long "PuppyOS Media Fiesta"

July 22, 2006 22:00 GMT - Follow-up meeting about puppylinux.biz

Transcript

raffyM [n=0a27eb0e@c2.phx.nearlyfreespeech.net] has joined #puppylinux-foundation

Topic is: Discussions about managing the community and content that surrounds and is Puppy Linux. http://puppylinux.org/wikka/FoundationPuppy∞ Next meeting will be on July 15, 2006 at 22:00 UTC

Topic set by J_Rey [Tue Jul 11 15:44:10 2006]

raffyM Arti1 @MAX1 @ChanServ

Channel created on Sun Jun 25 03:54:42 2006

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<dewdropGMT-5> Hi Raffy....I've been off the internet for a couple of weeks and just saw that there is supposed to be a meeting in about 10 minutes...correct?

<raffyM> hi, maybe 1 hour more

<raffyM> you could be on DST?

<dewdropGMT-5> yes, I'm on what we call CDT (Central Daylight Time)

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<dewdropGMT-5> so it is 2200GMT correct?

<raffyM> yes, so if you have the time, pls sit around and feel free to be moderator :)

<dewdropGMT-5> No thanks....I'm off to church in about 1/2 hour...so being a moderator wouldn't really be right

<raffyM> :)

<dewdropGMT-5> I didn't even see the topic for today's meeting....what is it?

<raffyM> have you seen the CE discussion? I might as well get your view now. ah am just checking...

<dewdropGMT-5> No....what was that about? Puppy2CE or Puppy109.CE?

<raffyM> pls wait a minute

<dewdropGMT-5> ok

<raffyM> http://www.murga.org/~puppy/viewtopic.php?t=9238∞

<alienjeff> ... and http://www.murga.org/%7Epuppy/viewtopic.php?p=57338#57338∞

<dewdropGMT-5> I just gave the thread you note a fast reading and it looks like you want to know if PuppyCE is ready to start offering to hardware makers...correct?

<dewdropGMT-5> hardware of different types....computers, phones, etc

<raffyM> more like working together with HW makers, and if the enthusiasts are ready to give support

<raffyM> http://www.murga.org/~puppy/viewtopic.php?p=36552#36552∞

<raffyM> You had important input about the CE idea (see link above this)

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<alienjeff> hi zigbert

<dewdropGMT-5> That's a real big responsibility. I know that Mark U, Lior2b, and a bunch of others are super capable, so maybe the time is right. As for me, I'm not all that technically proficient and couldn't really offer too much

<zigbert> hi

<raffyM> if you know how to add packages such as dotpup or sfs, that should be easy. hi, zig

<dewdropGMT-5> Hi Zig....

<dewdropGMT-5> That's what I mean, I really don't know how to do the sfs packages and things that would make Puppy really useful to lots of people

<dewdropGMT-5> but I believe there are people here who do know how to - and they could kind of lead the way ... kind of like Rarsa did with me on the CUPS printing thread

<raffyM> It's more like guiding them how to customize Puppy, or build that custom Puppy for them. packages should be available from other enthusiasts

<raffyM> yes, it's interesting to get your story about that

<dewdropGMT-5> Rarsa was very helpful, knew where he wanted to go with CUPS and most importantly, knew how to lead me in the right direction.

<raffyM> hmm, so would you feel confident now leading users in cups printing, for example?

<raffyM> (especially as PERL is now in Puppy 2)

<dewdropGMT-5> To a certain degree yes. I think I have helped a few people with CUPS, after my time with Rarsa. Then when pup2 came along I did a step by step that helped others.

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<raffyM> (step by step - I must have missed that. do you have a link?)

<dewdropGMT-5> I think there is still some work to be done with the perl version that is in Puppy2. But, I'm not exactly sure what needs to be done. I think it has to do with the size of perl as an addon. It is a really large file. Hi Lobster

<LobsterEd> hi

<raffyM> hi, Ed

<dewdropGMT-5> yes....just a second and I'll get it.

<LobsterEd> have we beguned?

<LobsterEd> hi raffy

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<LobsterEd> hi Huey

<raffyM> Dewdrop says he could be leaving soon, so am getting his input to the topic

<Hueynym> hey lobster

<LobsterEd> ah OK - hi dewdrop

<dewdropGMT-5> http://www.murga.org/~puppy/viewtopic.php?t=8673∞ This is the puppy2 link

<LobsterEd> Mu is coming? And Kenny and Barry?

<raffyM> [Dew is getting the how-to thread about CUPS (an example of an enthusiast leading a functional area of Puppy)]

<LobsterEd> No Nathan :(

<dewdropGMT-5> I think I saw where Nathan was in travel mode as we meet

<LobsterEd> yes . . .

<Hueynym> yeah - what's up with that trying to make a living stuff?? :)

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<LobsterEd> and having families . . . what sort of geek behaviour is that? positely normal . . .

<raffyM> Thanks for the link, Dew

<LobsterEd> Hi Snow dog - your first efforts at IRC ;)

<raffyM> hi, snowdog and huey

<SnowDog_Reall1> not exactly but i'm rusty 4 sure hi gang

<LobsterEd> Raffy are you gonna be chait - I can be a table . . .?

<LobsterEd> chair . . .

<dewdropGMT-5> Anyway Raffy. The 2 CUPS threads...the original with Rarsa and mine with Puppy 2....it is a good example of someone with limited knowledge (me), being lead by someone with lots of knowledge. Handholding at its best. And I think a lot of people have benefitted from our thread(s).

<LobsterEd> agree with dewdrop

<raffyM> so what this means is that a team effort will be good

<alienjeff> In other words: the Forum ROCKS.

<LobsterEd> yep agree with alien

<Chronis_X> ITS OFF THE HOOK BABY!

<Chronis_X> sorry )

<dewdropGMT-5> that's exactly right. And 109CE is another super example of a team effort succeding.

<LobsterEd> OK raffy are you calling this to order?

<alienjeff> (preaching to the choir)

<LobsterEd> I need to talk about CE

<dewdropGMT-5> amen....and so I'm off for this time......bye from our new place in Texas....all ya'll

<LobsterEd> see U dewdrop

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<alienjeff> later,dewddrop ... be well!

<LobsterEd> ;)

<SnowDog_Reall1> So, guys...girls?..Is it meeting time, or am I an hour early?

<raffyM> LobsterEd, it's not yet time, but feel free to deliver your piece - you can point to a page of your report

<Hueynym> 45 minutes

<Hueynym> but I've never been good with time...

<LobsterEd> BUM! - that summer time gets me every time

<SnowDog_Reall1> Cool, that's waht I was hoping...Thnx Lobster for the UTC converter

<LobsterEd> OK - gonna have to report

<LobsterEd> Community edition and modular puppy

<LobsterEd> . . . this is the theory . . .

<LobsterEd> Barebones + whatever people want . . .

<raffyM> the model, perhaps

<LobsterEd> It is that simple - that way no chubby puppy or Ofice puppy or whatever - just baebones + - any good? thoughts?

<Hueynym> so is THAT what's being called "modular"?

<LobsterEd> barebones + Opera or firefox + xfce etc . . .

<raffyM> it is perhaps already proven doable by a user with some extra effort

<alienjeff> Great concept, providing the add-ons integrate properly.

<raffyM> made easier with sfs add-on, drop to root and reboot

<Chronis_X> people are still going to be more inclined to say "which distro should i DL" than "what modules do i want" right?

<LobsterEd> Yes modular is we have a basic Pup and then add what we want the community concentrates on providing the most up to date add on - the core developers Barry and Mu etc concentrate on Barebones . . .

<Arti1> jim232777 made the xfce puppy at my request

<raffyM> (perhaps we can be silent on what the core developers want to focus on)

<zigbert> would it be possible to get grafpup as an *sfs

<LobsterEd> The point is ready made distros can be made from the modules BUT with a browser + a window manager - you already have 25 different distros . . .

<raffyM> ah, hi artie, yes, that was a good example of a custom build from one enthusiast to another

<Hueynym> It needs to be as complete as possible with only a few major diferentiating changes ...

<LobsterEd> grafpup could be brought back into Puppy BUT it is whether Nathan wants that . . .

<Hueynym> i.e. window manager/browser

<LobsterEd> It would mean that slightly more experienced Puppys could combine and host ISO's - we take more of an active role . . .

<raffyM> grafpup is a graphics-focused build, te answer is perhaps yes to the question of building an sfs

<zigbert> Lobster. But you sat it would be possible to have wide extensions with total new enviroments

<Hueynym> I think too many options will give people an easier excuse to choose a different distro...

<raffyM> a good view to think about, thanks, huey

<alienjeff> "Blinded by choice" if you will.

<LobsterEd> the barebones Puppy is pretty complete and Barry may also decide to create a Puppy standard - that is two options - and that is fine for most . . .

<Arti1> You don't think that one should concentrate on building a barebones +xfce +a common denominator and let people put together specialised distros like grafpup?

<raffyM> artie, are you asking huey?

<alienjeff> I like the idea of a single puppy standard disto, and a barebones-addon distro. Too many distros dillutes, IMO.

<LobsterEd> yes specialised will happen and with the CE we could decide on a Window manager . . . which one?

<Hueynym> I'm still not sure what the common denominator would be...

<LobsterEd> I would suggest Xfce . . .

<Arti1> Noone special, just thought that there should be a Puppy standard with xfce and the most common programs

<Chronis_X> LobsterEd : so the core developers are going to save time by working on 1 main distro instead of 3 or 4 basically?

<Arti1> Agree with alienjeff

<LobsterEd> you got it Chronis - the core is small and designed to work - and work well

<Hueynym> xfce is too bloated for a standard pup

<Chronis_X> i wonder if Xfce has been proven to work well in most environments including eqmu and vmware

<Hueynym> it's okay in qemu, not sure about vm...

<raffyM> xfce runs noticeably slower than jwm in old PCs

<LobsterEd> the point is we only have to (with two distros support two designs) AND the major software

<LobsterEd> yes - so xfce is my choice - others will prefer ICEwm

<SnowDog_Reall1> Sorry if I can only contribute from this perspective, but from a web ordering point of view, this could be done in virtuemart ie: choose base (whatever that ends up being) then WM, Games, Utils, etc as drop down choices, I think this could maybe even be done as a downloadable product with a slight wait time while admin puts it together.

<Hueynym> also too bloated... (I personally prefer Xfce)

<Chronis_X> it sounds like you could always just slap a couple packages in with the core, and call that a different distro

<LobsterEd> some prefer Opera to firefox - thinking of one distro one OS is too dictatorial - modular is about choice - the Linux strength . . .

<raffyM> i guess the point here is having ready custom builds (done by enthusiasts) if and when users ask for it

<Hueynym> that's a GREAT contribution, SnowDog_Reall1!!

<LobsterEd> Most distros are nothing more than an arrangement of software . . .

<LobsterEd> where is the uniquness?

<LobsterEd> Puppy is small - keep barebones - and yes keep standard - then customise . . .

<Arti1> Opera and Firefox should be the browsers, get rid of SeaMonkey, use Bluefish for html editing

<Hueynym> Aren't we asking for "donations" for the custom disks? wasn't that what Kenny was doing?

<Chronis_X> im wondering... if the core was ok, and all the modules were ok... the official webpage could still have several 'main' versions, without taking any more mentoinable time from the core developers, no?

<LobsterEd> see art - that is the current problem - I like Sea monkey - so why not have your option and mine?

<raffyM> Huey, Kenny proposed that last meeting

<Hueynym> I remember, that's why I brought it up

<Hueynym> since we've started early, without him

<LobsterEd> also Bluefish is no good for my needs - I need NVE - so I add it - and that has to be easy . . .

<LobsterEd> NVU

<raffyM> hmm, maybe the question really is how to do it (the customization for the user), as there are really unique preferences among people

<Arti1> Because Firefox and to a lesser degree Opera is known throughout the world at the moment. People will see Firefox and be familiar and feel at home.

<alienjeff> Opera and Firefox, although wonderful browsers, are Bloatware.

<LobsterEd> well part of the solution may be .pet

<Hueynym> and Nathan can't live without Bluefish :)

<Arti1> Me neither... :-)

<raffyM> yes, Nathan is working hard on .pet (package manager)

<LobsterEd> at the moment the solution is a barebones plus clear add on facilities - hence the CE page . . . (needs work)

<LobsterEd> http://puppylinux.org/wikka/CommunityEdition∞

<raffyM> Ed, maybe we can design an HTML splash page for the wiki along your early design

<raffyM> (as you linked just now)

<LobsterEd> yep that would be temp until . .. .pet was ready . . .

<LobsterEd> the wiki page links would still be useful for info and links to software sites - screen shots etc for .pets . . .

<raffyM> i have just tested an sfs for Wikipedia CD as packaged by soschildrensvillages

<Arti1> We have to have a single install manager like Synaptic and a single repository for dotpups

<raffyM> 170 sfs that gets into ghttpd htdocs

<raffyM> meaning, sfs is also a cool way of customizing

<LobsterEd> we have unleashed and we .sfs and we .pups

<LobsterEd> so we have add ons - as a community we can provide and update specific info for users to customise . ..

<LobsterEd> this will be useful info for .pet development for Nathan

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<Hueynym> Arti1: That's a pretty big burden for one IP's bandwidth (the single repository)

<LobsterEd> hi ndujoe :)

<Hueynym> hey ndujoe1

<ndujoe1> hi

<raffyM> useful to remember: "as a community we can provide and update specific info for users to customise", thanks, LobsterEd

<raffyM> (Puppy Linux, that is)

<ndujoe1> i like the way MU has made a dotpup for Open Office.

<LobsterEd> |Anyways . . that is the idea of CE - I hope it makes sense and I hope others will support it by developing specific pages on the wiki

<Chronis_X> 1 thing i'm thinking about that: as a somewhat concerned enthusiest, i think its important try not to risk loosing any potential users by having the only distro available from the official site be totally barebones, even if it means having a couple of the popular enthusiest-created distros available at the main site so the core devs dont have to waste even a moment on it

<Hueynym> I think I must need more medication to understand that last statement ...

<Arti1> Something like http://www.dotpups.de∞

<LobsterEd> then when the CE edition (aka Meaty0 is added to barebones 2.02 we will have something rather special - but really it needs approval and commitment - if it is thought of as a good methodology . . .

<raffyM> w/c one, Huey?

<Arti1> I agree with Chronis

<Chronis_X> ty

<Hueynym> the one Crusty made about updating specific info for users to customise... :)

<Arti1> We need a clear standard puppy

<LobsterEd> Barry decides what to release - but he wishes to give more power to the community - but we too have to be willing to put in the work and commitment that he offers . . .

<ndujoe1> It appears that Barry is making more changes under the hood of Puppy in his news. Am I right on this point?

<LobsterEd> I believe the standard Puppy 2.02 will use Seamonkey and Jwm

<LobsterEd> Barebones will only have Dillo nd no gnumeric or Abiword . . .

<Hueynym> so the status is quo

<Arti1> I hope not... 1.09CE was a step in the right direction

<raffyM> joe, yes

<raffyM> right in what sense, Artie?

<LobsterEd> well 2.02CE would be the same as 1.09 BUT it would also be wider . . .

<Hueynym> ok, Crusty, I give - what do you mean by "wider" ???

<ndujoe1> A friend of mine at our computer club came up to recount the woes of using Fedora. Of course I recommended that he try PuppyLinux for simplicity of installation and use.

<raffyM> joe, and what happened?

<Arti1> I feel 1.09CE was the first puppy that seemed a complete os from the beginning you loaded it.

<raffyM> "wider', yes, worth explaining...

<ndujoe1> the automatic update feature is Fedora threw his system off. He had to start over.

<LobsterEd> I mean a wider choice - Nathan wanted to use Opera instead of Firefox - but the community decided on Firefox - but with a modular system Nathan and Firefox and even Flock lovers acan be accomodated

<Hueynym> that's how I felt about 109, Arti1...

<raffyM> artie, yes, Nathan (and the team) put a lot of effort to 1.09

<LobsterEd> What is Hacao doing ?

<SnowDog_Reall1> anyone know how bad the bloat factor would be if opera was added to barebones instead of dillo? just thinking, most everyone that I deal with (windows converts) is gonna need a browser, mail, & chat as a starting point? or is that kinda like undoing the barebones idea?

<alienjeff> What some consider "complete," others will label "bloated." Keep that in mind.

<raffyM> snowdog, you mean with opera the ISO will still be small?

<Chronis_X> likewise what some consider "modest" others will label "incomplete"

<alienjeff> Agreed.

<ndujoe1> I like the flexibility that has been shown in the various Puppy version creations. We can each meet our own likes.

<alienjeff> And should be considered when engineering the "standard" iso and the barebones.

<LobsterEd> Barebones with Dillo (dillo is good enough for downloading a better browser) some prefer dillo - coz it is fast . . .

<Arti1> We have to make 2.02 give the same feeling from the beginning. We have to use Firefox for the sheer familiarity of it. Keep sylpheed for mail and news, bluefish for editing, gaim for chat.

<SnowDog_Reall1> raffy, what i was getting at is yes, will the ISO still be small?

<Chronis_X> only problem I've had with dillo is no ctrl-F to find, and pressing enter in some forms doesn't submit them... some forms dont even have a button they depend on you pressing enter

<Chronis_X> which makes me wonder how DSL got firefox in there

<Arti1> Opera can be an option for feinschmeckers

<Hueynym> they use version 0.9

<Chronis_X> ah

<alienjeff> We have to use Firefox for the sheer familiarity of it. <

---

with THAT logic, it would make more sense to incorporate Internet Explorer.
<Hueynym> there's also the question of versioning

<LobsterEd> I can not use Dillo - Opera I find is too odd in some behaviour - Firefox too I am not happy with - everyone is diffeent . . .

<raffyM> snowdog, you can add opera into barebones 2.01r2 and see for yourself :)

<Chronis_X> FireFox pupGet was like 17 MB if i remember

<Chronis_X> compressed

<alienjeff> lol

<Hueynym> but it had BOOKMARKS!!! :)

<Chronis_X> rofl

<alienjeff> How about BloatedPuppy

<Chronis_X> FatPuppy

<alienjeff> heh

<Chronis_X> but yeah the core devs shouldnt waste time on all that if they don't have to in order for the avg user to have that available

<Arti1> alienjeff, the percentage of people using firefox I think is closing on ten percent. Explorer is not very popular and firefox will probably gain more. It's the only logical choice and will make people deliberately choose Puppy.

<ndujoe1> I will alway vote to keep Puppy slim and trim :)

<alienjeff> Arti1: 10% isn't exactly overwhelming.

<ndujoe1> our computer club leader said that Firefox supports AJAX applications

<alienjeff> People adjusted from IE to Firefox. Seamonkey isn't much of a stretch for folks with IQs over 70.

<raffyM> if Opera is compared with Firefox, will Opera be slimmer?

<Arti1> Firefox supports just about everything out there

<LobsterEd> Opera is slimmer

<Hueynym> overall it would be, but it's closed source

<Chronis_X> firefox is definitely gaining.. i see a lot of windows programs that have a checbox for "install FireFox while you're at it"

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<LobsterEd> hi

<Hueynym> Opera is safer and more standards compliant

<Hueynym> hey SitHeelSpeak

<SitHeelSpeak> Good afternoon

<ndujoe1> hi StiHeelSpeak

<Chronis_X> i was pretty disappointed with Opera 9 on my windows box but i have tried jerking it out and reinstalling yet, after the upgrade

<Chronis_X> haven't* tried

<zigbert> Your talking browsers, but you can all choose your favorite.

<LobsterEd> Whilst you discuss which browser - I mention again - with a an easy modular system you can have all none or one or some browsers . . .

<ndujoe1> browsers have come a long way that's for sure.

<alienjeff> Puppy's origins are a small, fast OS. I believe the "standard" iso should reflect that. If individual users want to feed their own puppies table scraps and other people food and bloat the bugger out, so be it.

<Hueynym> the same with window managers and programs, right?

<alienjeff> But the "standard" should be lean, mean and fast.

<LobsterEd> agree with alien . ..

<Chronis_X> LobsterEd: there needs to be a functional-if-small browser included though right? and some say dillo isn't good, i wonder if dillo's still being developed

<LobsterEd> agree with huey

<SnowDog_Reall1> i'm only seeing it from the point of view that i work with. ie: I try my best to convert everyone i deal with, or at least get them to try puppy. This works wonders on most of them when they can find their way around easily. I love dillo myself, but new x-windozers, (the ones I've given Barebones to) the first place they head for is browser, chat & mail, they seem to see dillo and sylpheed as a representation of th

<ndujoe1> i like that concept Alienjeff. maybe we should call the add ons "table scraps"

<LobsterEd> Dillo is developed - but it is pretty low key and limited - it is fast

<Hueynym> Chronis_X: yes, it is

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<ndujoe1> that's true SnowDog the news user will head for the internet right away.

<Chronis_X> and if they are disappointed with dillo... : \

<Arti1> People will never accept Dillo as a subtitution for Firefox. I agree with Chronis.

<Chronis_X> hurts us all a lot in the longrun

<alienjeff> Dillo is pretty basic. Seamonkey is a gem: it's pretty small, it runs well and is intuitive.

<ndujoe1> I agree.

<Arti1> We need to have a barebones +Firefox +Sylpheed +gaim +bluefish +gftp

<alienjeff> Firefox and Opera are fine, but rather large.

<zigbert> There must still be a standard Puppy ISO for newbies

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<raffyM> It's start time, guys, will post the previus discussion here for others to see: http://puppylinux.org/wikka/Foundation2006July∞

<LobsterEd> hi

<PupUserd53e63> LobsterEd: first time on time, thanks to you !

<Arti1> Newbies must see something familiar when they first see the screen

PupUserd53e63 is now known as bloodhound

<LobsterEd> :)

<ndujoe1> hi bloodhound

<bloodhound> ndujoe1: =-O

<Chronis_X> hey blood

<Arti1> Hi

<LobsterEd> propose Raffy as chair for meeting

<raffyM> Yes, thanks

<alienjeff> Seconded.

<Hueynym> propose Lobster as table for meeting

<SnowDog_Reall1> 2nd. can i do that? i'm new here.

<LobsterEd> thanks Huey accepted

bloodhound sits on raffyM

<raffyM> Pls see http://puppylinux.org/wikka/Foundation2006July∞ for earlier discussion

Chronis_X wants to be the gavel

<LobsterEd> second chronis as gavel

<raffyM> ha ha, you must be tired already, guys

<Hueynym> (he just wants to be hit on the heaf)

<Hueynym> head

<Chronis_X> Order! *WHACK*

<raffyM> So earlier discussion noted the need for a lean Puppy standard release

<LobsterEd> Lobster hides under himself (well I am a table)

<raffyM> while customizing for users will also be supported

<LobsterEd> yes

<LobsterEd> I would make a specail plea fo everyone to work on the wiki links here . . .

<LobsterEd> http://puppylinux.org/wikka/CommunityEdition∞

<raffyM> We can wait for newly arrived members to view the early transcript and add their comments

<raffyM> Again, here is the link for early discussion: http://puppylinux.org/wikka/Foundation2006July∞

<LobsterEd> I need to get my sedation . . .

<LobsterEd> good night - have a great meeting - be kind to everyone :)

<Hueynym> Essentially, we just want the "standard" puppy in addition to barebones, correct?

<Hueynym> time for the table to be shelved... :)

<LobsterEd> yes Huey that is what I propose and focus on easy installation - moving longterm to .pet

<bloodhound> LobsterEd: there goes my dinner - niters

<LobsterEd> :)

<LobsterEd> bye

<LobsterEd> Lobster out

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<raffyM> thanks, Ed

<raffyM> Right, Huey, more of "dont forget to release a standard one"

<alienjeff> ... emphasis on "a" standard. Not a bunch of 'em.

<Arti1> Hear hear

<Hueynym> that's all Barry has ever released - just the one, and now one barebones...

<Arti1> We simply need a 1.09CE based on 2.02

<Arti1> And a very simple Synapticlike way to add programs

<raffyM> ah, that is a suggestion, Artie

<raffyM> (a more specific suggestion on how the 'standard' version is released)

(follows some technical discussions posted below)

<Hueynym> raffyM: Are you still here???

<bloodhound> SnowDog_Reall1: multimedia live distro

<raffyM> yes, i am

<bloodhound> zigbert: you mean it suspends ?

<zigbert> acer aspire 1350 (cheap and 3 years old)

<SnowDog_Reall1> bloodhound: I have atpad that won't boot 2.01rc1, I know i need a puppy pfile=nousb or some such but can't recall exact command, hangs on irq15 or something similar

<bloodhound> zigbert: did you have to config anything or just worked ?

<Hueynym> can we get back to the agenda, please

<zigbert> explain suspend

<Arti1> Agree with huey

<alienjeff> Paging chairman raffyM ...

<zigbert> Puppy 2.00 had detection problems, but not 2.01

<raffyM> Yes, thanks, was just allowing some discussion there

<Hueynym> it went to the dogs :)

<bloodhound> agenda, the puppy app ?

<raffyM> So, about Puppy development, will there be more discussions?

<raffyM> Any more items about future development?

<SnowDog_Reall1> sorry for ot huey, first meeting. I'll try to follow leads

<Arti1> Another thing: What about multimedia codexes?

<Arti1> Gxine or mplayer or something else?

<Chronis_X> sounds to me like the idea is for the core developers to focus on the core, meaning compatability in the name of growth/expansion, so they want to work on 1 distro and leave the rest up to the enthusiasts

<raffyM> If i remember right, Mu released a pack of codecs with megapup, but a dotpup should also be available

<Hueynym> two packs, in fact

<Arti1> Barry should only work on the barebones, we should agree on which programs to add to the barebone, which windows manager etc

<Chronis_X> from what i read, keeping it useable from live-CD with only 128MB of ram means no FireFox

<Arti1> There are two packs available, but they should be incorporated into the distro from the beginning

<raffyM> All these suggestions are valid, and our developers will take note

<Chronis_X> ...unless other things are sacrificed , maybe

<Arti1> Like SeaMonkey

<raffyM> those points have been recorded early on. do we have other new ideas about development?

<zigbert> with nathans squash utility much is possible

<Hueynym> it's an infringement of copyright or other issue, which is why they aren't usually included in any distro that you don't pay licencing fees for

<raffyM> If none, we go to the next item

<alienjeff> Thank dog.

<bloodhound> raffyM: may i suggest st more from user/hacker POV ?

<Chronis_X> i have some development-related suggestions, i think, if we're about to leave the development topic

<raffyM> Yes, please

<Chronis_X> mainly in the area of what can be done to increase USB compatability, and thusly overall system-portability

<bloodhound> puppy severely lacks basic CLI apps

<Chronis_X> right now there's a boot disk that funs FreeDOS

<bloodhound> i think they are neglected

<Chronis_X> and uses an USBASPI.SYS driver v 2.20 i think

<raffyM> BH, pls list examples

<bloodhound> i could do more w some floppy distros

<bloodhound> less

<raffyM> Yes, Chronis, suggestion noted

<bloodhound> badblocks

<bloodhound> superformat

<raffyM> BH, have you tested the OneBone 2.01?

<Hueynym> there were a number of utilities Barry left out specifically for space reasons

<bloodhound> nope

<bloodhound> 2.0.1-seadonkey

<Chronis_X> i wonder if it wouldn't be easier to have an actual linux-based boot floppy with a new kernel that is specificly made for maximum USB and Rom-drive compatability

<raffyM> BH, then kindly check it out and also the CLI apps added to the forum

<bloodhound> this is st many ppl in channel complain

<raffyM> then feel free to create a forum thread abt your point

<bloodhound> various CLI tools they consider for granted from any other dist

<Chronis_X> ideally, old systems without USB-boot-bios could still boot a USB puppy installation, with help from the floppy

<raffyM> BH, OK, that is a good point about users' expectations

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<raffyM> Chronis, have you tried using Wakepup?

<Chronis_X> bloodhound yeah you probably have a point with CLI stuff like locate, other examples escape me

<Chronis_X> yes I have, i'm 1 for 5 success rate so far

<Chronis_X> some systems actually freeze when USBASPI.SYS is loading

<raffyM> pls check how wakepup does in relation to your suggestion, and create a forum thread about it

<SnowDog_Reall1> Chronis muggins sent me to a boot floppy like that that makes non cd bootables boot.

<Chronis_X> ok

<raffyM> Any more new points about development, guys?

<Chronis_X> yeah I was thinking of trying boot floppies from other Linux distros, that boot a linux kernel instead of FreeDOS

<bloodhound> SnowDog_Reall1: mean smb ?

<SnowDog_Reall1> bh: yep

<alienjeff> Point of reference re CLI: http://www.murga.org/~puppy/viewtopic.php?t=8623∞

<bloodhound> that is known to be best in this case

<Chronis_X> raffyM did you mean make a thread right now?

<raffyM> Pls experiment with the new universal installer in 2.01r2 before anything else, many of your ideas could be there already

<raffyM> Chrois, later

<Chronis_X> alirght

<Chronis_X> well its important to be able to get the PupGet / DotPup packages from the package manager of course

<raffyM> "Promoton: ecommerce and training"

<raffyM> So lets us now go to this topic

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<Chronis_X> and if there are new versions of the package installers (official) , it should be easy to find the button to upgrade your package installer

<raffyM> TY for the link, jeff, it was keenerd adding the CLIs

<Hueynym> that would pre-suppose an official package installer :)

<alienjeff> yw, raffyM

<Chronis_X> Hueynym: menu, setup, puppy package manager... thats kindof an official package installer isnt it?

<Chronis_X> or a start of one i guess... looks like one to the untrained eye

<SnowDog_Reall1> the new package manager has icons instead of text, although they have pop-up info, I found it a bit wierd

<alienjeff> Regarding ecommerce: this is an arena that needs to be approached very carefully and deliberately.

<Hueynym> yes - but officially, everyone seems to deny the existence of a "package manager" :)

<Chronis_X> one more development thing: maybe not important, but i think it'd be cool: a QEMU distro, perhaps with an option to create/use a diskfile on the host machine

<raffyM> so PM should be elaborated on in the websites

<raffyM> OK, noted, Chronis

<raffyM> PM = package manager

<Hueynym> that's already been done Chronis_X, by one of the users (Peter, I think)

<bloodhound> alienjeff: tx so much for link, so people can get directed there

<alienjeff> ... lest Puppy begins to take on the appearance of a "company."

<alienjeff> yw bloodhound

<Hueynym> we ask only for "donations"

<raffyM> yes, jeff, so this is taken up as an important topic today

<Arti1> Donations going to Barry of course

<alienjeff> Yes, but sooner or later someone is going to see a cash cow, or cash pup if you will.

<alienjeff> And we, as a community, don't need that kind of association.

<SnowDog_Reall1> huey, do you mean that the community edition is transferred only by donation (not sold)?

<Arti1> Has Barry any kind of patent on Puppy?

<Hueynym> it was Kenny's idea -

<raffyM> if donation is made before shipment, how will that be called?

<Hueynym> Donation :)

<alienjeff> Donation.

<alienjeff> heh

<raffyM> Artie, its a GPL

<alienjeff> "How nice. A donation. I think I'll send a disc as a thank you."

<Hueynym> no "Donation", no shipment :)

<raffyM> But jeff made it sound so nice :)

<Chronis_X> "Send a 100.00 donation and get a FREE usb flash drive pre-installed to your customization!"

<raffyM> hmm

<alienjeff> Interesting thought, Chronis.

<Hueynym> if you send me a big donation, I'll customize 5 programs, if you send me a small one, I'll only change 2 ....

<Chronis_X> thats how most do it, like PBS, you get a "free" reward for your donation of X size or more

<raffyM> Now, one point is, if Kenny or any other enthusiast wants to offer services, shall he be given a webpage?

<Chronis_X> "donate on the $200 level and you get the DVD -AND- the VHS!"

<Arti1> Impossible in practice

<raffyM> any link there, Chronis?

<alienjeff> Who would ultimately pay for the webpage?

<Chronis_X> raffyM nah im just quoting TV

<Hueynym> any further information regarding incorporation from Ian, raffyM?

<raffyM> jeff, the donors, of course :)

<Chronis_X> I assume 'given a webpage' means at the official site

<bloodhound> i think dsl sells usb-sticks w preinstalled sys

<raffyM> Huey, none so far

<Chronis_X> bloodhound yes they do for $50, im not gonna buy one though after seeing how finicky that USB-boot process is in general and how finicky DSL was for me

<raffyM> there is puppylinux.biz site up for discussion/testing

<Hueynym> yes - $49 plus s/h

<raffyM> compliments of SnowDog

<Hueynym> really nice site, too!

<Hueynym> AND, it's a 64meg stick, too

<bloodhound> so its old stock ? LOL

<alienjeff> The promotion of Puppy starts at the grassroots level: one enthusiast turning someone on to Puppy by giving them a Live CD. That system needs to be reinforced on the website.

<bloodhound> vintage...

<alienjeff> The growth of Puppy can be exponential.

<raffyM> any comments on the site? i wonder what membership benefits there are given to the user?

<raffyM> good point, jeef, well taken

bloodhound notes that he has just been donated a lappy which came with puppy preinstalled

<Chronis_X> yeah Puppy could be HUGE, we just gotta weed-out all the little things that will hold it back

<SnowDog_Reall1> perhaps, site membership is a way to provide accesss to the customization of CE?

<alienjeff> In re: promotion -- my nephew-in-law works for a huge, multi-national software company (no, not M$). He's in R&D and testing. Know what he uses at work for a rescue OS? Puppy on a stick.

<alienjeff> I'm going to approach him and ask if he'd be willing to submit an anonymous endorsement for the website.

<raffyM> I wonder if he can mention it officially :)

<alienjeff> I'll ask.

<bloodhound> raffyM: proposal: most ppl that where really into this topic are missing, maybe would be good idea to delay this topic

<raffyM> yes, new articles are really welcome, one good enough for desktoplinux.com :)

<raffyM> BH, we can continue, were not voting, just generating ideas

<bloodhound> k

<bloodhound> just a thaught

<raffyM> Huey must have more ideas about promotion :)

<Arti1> Been to the biz site. Nice! Where exactly does the cash go?

<Chronis_X> i wonder if you could sell in-depth movies on how to do everything (in puppy but maybe trying to encompass a lot of what linux can do)

<Chronis_X> like lynda.com they sell training videos on cd

<raffyM> Ah yes, Rhine of rhinoweb.us has done some movies

<raffyM> Rhino, sorry

<alienjeff> Another suggestion: many enthusiasts have personal websites. On mine, http://www.alienjeff.gotdns.com∞ , I have a Puppy log and link to either Barry's or the org's site. Encourage enthusiasts to do the same on their sites/blogs.

<Chronis_X> right so it'd have to be much different , to try to sell it lol

<Hueynym> they're quite good

<alienjeff> log > logo

<SnowDog_Reall1> i have been considering something like local LUG's but puppy oriented, install fests, free cd's sponsors?

bloodhound wondered whatis puppptis puppy log

<raffyM> maybe it will be useful for pages or websites to be summarized in a page and a description of what each offers be put there

<alienjeff> BTW, Puppy runs my website from my humble 600 MHz PIII that I'm using here on IRC.

<Chronis_X> free seminar how to use linux, featuring puppy, would be a good promotion move

<Arti1> I have been handing out some disks at work and to friends. Good response so far.

<alienjeff> Way to go, Arti1

<Chronis_X> thats an idea raffyM... with many organizations of information its best to have lots of tiers, lots of levels, with the top being simplest and hopefully encompassing everything as it divides to the next level down... im rambling arent i

<raffyM> yes, and you can add content, like the wikipedia static selection by soschildrensvillages

<raffyM> what will be that "tier"?

<alienjeff> Promotional slogans? Sayings? Catch phrases?

<Chronis_X> not sure what you're asking , but im thinking of a big button that say "Get Into It!" and then has large colorful easy to read and not-too numerous sections/buttons from there down

<alienjeff> "Puppy Linux. So easy, even AOL users can master it!:

<alienjeff> lol

<Chronis_X> there ya go

<Arti1> lol

<alienjeff> sorry

<alienjeff> couldn't resist

<Hueynym> what are AOL users?

<Chronis_X> no fonts smaller than an inch high lol

<raffyM> ah, tiers of web pages

<Arti1> How to alienate a big population in one fell swoop

<alienjeff> Just kidding, Arti1.

<alienjeff> Your point is well taken, though.

<Chronis_X> although i suppose you'd want "See it" and then "Get into it", even if they could both go to the same page with more giant-font buttons for very very general categories

<raffyM> at least that will lead the search of AOL here :)

<alienjeff> "Puppy Linux - from CD to the Internet in 5 minutes or less"

<alienjeff> somelthing like that

<SnowDog_Reall1> I have made some tri-fold flyers that are free take one, at local convenience store and restaraunt, post office. Puppy promo stuff with links to main site & my site, i'll post a link to em in the forum if any artsy types would care to improve them or use them.

<raffyM> yes, keep going...

<raffyM> thanks, snowdog

<Chronis_X> how about a flash movie, low-bandwith-friendly if possible, that is like "Puppy is SO easy, watch this guy put the CD in and Boom he's browsing all his favorite sites!"

<Chronis_X> that could go under "see it"

<Chronis_X> then the guy gives ya a big stupid grin and thumbs-up lol

<alienjeff> nice

<raffyM> nice one, Chronis

<Hueynym> "Stick the Puppy In..." ... "Turn the Puppy On..." ... "Do it Doggy Style"

<alienjeff> especially the "big stupid grin" heh

<Chronis_X> oh oh and one of those shiny-twinkly things on his teeth, like in Crest commecials

<raffyM> Who's good-looking enough to do that: Huey?

<Hueynym> I fit the "big and Stupid" part :)

<raffyM> ha ha, Huey

<alienjeff> "Everyone loves a Puppy"

<Arti1> What really would be cool if you just could show this joe average take a disc, boot it and get online as if it's the easiest thing in the world, nonchalantly like

<raffyM> and on a Pentium 400

<Chronis_X> i dunno.. nonchalant, or "WOW that was SO EASY! A lot more fun than the dentist!" and the tooth-twinkle lol

<Hueynym> How much is that Puppy in the Windows??? IT'S FREE, CAUSE IT'S OPEN SOURCE, and you don't need no stinkin WINDOWS

<SnowDog_Reall1> I've got the best reactions to puppy, from folks who have a virusized box or a baked hdd, I now have a special screwed up box that i use to demo puppy on.

<raffyM> yes, good old song "Doggie in the window"

<raffyM> or is it another song title?

<alienjeff> "Love your old computer but don't want to replace it just so you can run XP? Then GET PUPPY!"

<Arti1> Good idea raffy. First show this old box with the speed and ram clearly showing on a sign

<Chronis_X> but with the 1st shot, like if someone's interested enuf to click "See it", you want to make it look like... heaven in 64 MB

<alienjeff> Great text, Hueynym.

<Chronis_X> only in less technical terms

<Hueynym> Microsoft (TM) doesn't love Windows 98 users - we do! - use Puppy

<alienjeff> "Windows? We don't need no stinkin' Windows."

<raffyM> Puppy users must have experienced heaven, then, LOL

<Chronis_X> "Here's whatcha do... ya take some hardware, and ya take this disc. You put it IN the computer. Bam! We're stylin"

<alienjeff> Chronis: are you in advertising?

<Chronis_X> no lol

<alienjeff> You should be.

<SnowDog_Reall1> speaking of old boxes, anyone know of a bootdisk that would auto-resize hdd & auto-create a swap for puppy.

<Arti1> "Puppy for the people"

<raffyM> Yes, Chronis, we're already looking for models (person to do it)

<Chronis_X> but Puppy is pretty cool, im motivated to contribute any useful info i can come up with

<Chronis_X> its So close

<Chronis_X> to being so perfect you cant tell its not

<raffyM> RH 9 anaconda did that, if I remember right

<raffyM> (auto creation of partitions)

<alienjeff> "Puppy Linux - you don't have to be a CS/IT major to be a geek."

<Chronis_X> "Puppy Linux - don't know what it is? You don't Have to!"

<Chronis_X> "it just works!"

<Hueynym> Puppy - it's the Cat's meow

<raffyM> I like "you're in heaven in Puppy" - I have a background image to go with it (see Forum search for "heavenly")

<Hueynym> Puppy - we know linux so you don't have to

<alienjeff> "Puppy Linux - because less IS more!"

<SnowDog_Reall1> and for the redneck market... Hotter'n turpentine on a cats arse

<alienjeff> lol

<Arti1> lol

<Chronis_X> actually i think Puppy approaches the point where you would wanna sell it without mentioning Linux, just as some new revolutionary OS

<Hueynym> exactly - just "puppy" or Puppy OS

<raffyM> Barry is using it already (puppyOS)

<Arti1> Puppy OS. Forget Linux. People don't care.

<alienjeff> "Every family needs a Puppy"

<SnowDog_Reall1> I totally support that idea cronis... everybody who sees it loves it, till i tell them it's linux, then the geek stereotype kicks in and they get scraed off

<raffyM> ah, good feedback there

<Chronis_X> put this disc in your computer.. and it rules! Made from totally organic life forms, it contains no CFC's, is friendly to Any system and is printed on recycled CD's!"

<alienjeff> How's the logging text buffer holding up, raffyM? heh

<raffyM> and runs recycled machines well

<raffyM> so far OK

<bloodhound> puppy: tiny dog pisses on ubuntus big lame leg !

<Chronis_X> i gues made by* organic life forms would be better sounding than made from* lol

<Arti1> I've gone down from 278M to 275 since we started...

<raffyM> BH, be careful, Ubuntu has million$ :)

<Hueynym> no nanoforms were harmed in the typing of this advertisement

<alienjeff> "Puppy OS - if for no other reason that it's easier to pronounce than Ubuntu"

<bloodhound> Arti1: do yo want to say we suck ?

<alienjeff> that > than

<bloodhound> raffyM: only thing it has

<Arti1> "Puppy OS - licks all others"

<bloodhound> shuttleworth has...

<SnowDog_Reall1> i tweaked that laptop wallpaper that someone put on the forum with the puppy peeing and put an xp background on the laptop. I called it Puppy X-Pee

<Hueynym> Puppy - because it can

<Chronis_X> Puppy OS - Cute as a Real puppy, but smarter! AND it doesn't pee! lol thats just kinda braindstorming , not 'final print material

<bloodhound> alienjeff: good one !

<raffyM> ha ha, snowdog, please post the image in the forum

<SnowDog_Reall1> will do

<alienjeff> "Puppy OS - when the big boys promise more and deliver less, Puppy promises less and delivers more."

<Arti1> Snowdog good one

<Arti1> You suck my memory...

<SnowDog_Reall1> ;-)

<alienjeff> SnowDog: where can we get that wallpaper?

<SnowDog_Reall1> I'll dig it up & post it on the forum later

<alienjeff> thanks!

<Hueynym> Puppy: Housebroken and well trained, can do many new tricks

<bloodhound> best thing i've seen is Flashs screenlicker

<raffyM> Adopt Puppy!

<raffyM> BH, where is that?

<Arti1> What a logo: Puppy peeing on an XP or Vista logo...

<alienjeff> lmao

<bloodhound> raffyM: hmmm.. other pc, dont have link

<Chronis_X> It's cute. It's cuddly. It devliers.

<bloodhound> raffyM: on billsaintclaire site

<Chronis_X> or maybe it brings you your news

<raffyM> OK, thanks

<Chronis_X> like dogs are supposed to lol

<alienjeff> "Remember when computing was fun? Puppy brings back that fun."

<SnowDog_Reall1> a bit ot maybe, but i put a rant on the puppylinux.biz site about how ubuntu got those big numbers. I read on d-watch today that 95 or so % is because ubuntu is their first exposure to linux, which means that we gotta figure out a way to get puppy into more hands. Lots more hands.

<raffyM> This could all be gathered in "About Puppy" page. Will find a place to put it

<Hueynym> Man's best friend isn't just for men any more...

<Chronis_X> hey you might be on to something there

<Arti1> Puppy for poor pcs...

<Chronis_X> Man's best friend now comes in digial

<raffyM> in Universal Installer

<Chronis_X> digital* i meant

<Arti1> It's 1:36 in the morning here and I'm getting too silly. Got to go. See you later.

<Hueynym> we prefer the term "bloat-challenged" :)

<Chronis_X> gotta keep in mind guys, Puppy has the potential to appeal to a wider, less computer-savvy market than even Microsoft

<Chronis_X> l8z Arti

<alienjeff> cya Arti1: nice meeting and brainstorming w/you.

<raffyM> Bye, Artie, anyway we'll have 15 minutes more perhaps...

<SnowDog_Reall1> seeya art

<Arti1> Thanks alien and everybody else. Will leave the pc on to record. Bye!

<raffyM> Snowdog and I can try collecting pages about these ideas and post in the forum later

<Hueynym> bye

<SnowDog_Reall1> I have a whole load of old bricks coming in next weekend. I'm thinking of puppyfying a few & doing a promo giveaway or something. maybe whoever brings in the most screwed up windows box wins a laptop

<raffyM> oh, would anyone volunteer as admin of puppylinux.biz?

* alienjeff would, but isn't qualified. Sorry.

<SnowDog_Reall1> well, failing anyone else, I'll keep helping with it. (but interim until a broader call can be made)

<raffyM> thanks, SnowDog

<SnowDog_Reall1> yw

<raffyM> So, we've been though 3 hours already, perhaps time to adjourn

<Hueynym> seconded

<alienjeff> any further agenda items?

<SnowDog_Reall1> what's everyone think of the idea of a cd label contest?

<alienjeff> good idea!

<raffyM> Will that be OK, follow-up discussion will be in the Forum http://www.murga.org/~puppy/∞

<alienjeff> Thank you for chairing this meeting, raffyM. Good job

<raffyM> Jeff, I guess we folow-up in the forum (link given above)

<raffyM> Thanks, everyone!

<SnowDog_Reall1> Thanks guys, very informative & entertaining

<Chronis_X> sounds good.. just for the record, one more thing about development: some systems seem to require "puppy irqpoll" but i noticed if i do that in vmware it scfews up the mouse

<Hueynym> thanks

<SnowDog_Reall1> thanks cronis, that's what i needed for the t-pad, i member now.

<Chronis_X> : )

<raffyM> Noted, Chronis, pls post more stuff like that in the Forum...

<Hueynym> have a good whatever, guys

<Chronis_X> will definitely get into that

<Chronis_X> hasta Huey

<SnowDog_Reall1> u2, thanks huey

---

*Clip of technical discussions:*

<ndujoe1> what does Synaptic mean ?

<Hueynym> has anyone tried klhrevolutionist's new .pup installer program?

<raffyM> joe - debian package manager, i guess

<Hueynym> it's similar to MU's .pup installer program

<Hueynym> (in interface, anyway)

<ndujoe1> ic thanks.

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<raffyM> Nathan is working on a package manager from CLI

<Arti1> I haven't tried the new .pup installer program yet. Will do.

<raffyM> Huey, have you uset that one?

<bloodhound> Hueynym: if it helps, i tried puget 1st time today, LOL

<Hueynym> I was just wondering how it compared in interface to Mark's - as I haven't used it

<Hueynym> great, bloodhound! Did it work for you?

<bloodhound> Hueynym: 1st package yes, the LT drivers didnt make my modem connect though...

bloodhound is impressed

<bloodhound> as is quite idle, may i take the opportunity for a warning ?

<Hueynym> well, GuestToo created the format to be SIMPLE and EASY and SMALL - and it is.. :)

<bloodhound> geany is not WISIWYG and can have unforeseeable results!

<Chronis_X> thats made more for coding than desktop publishing i thought

<bloodhound> avoid for coding /scripting/configuring

<Hueynym> in what way?

<bloodhound> it messed up config files

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<Hueynym> it's a programmer's editor

<bloodhound> app saw different things, than opening with geany shows

<Chronis_X> bloodhound you're saying is not even WYSIWYG in an ascii sense?

<Arti1> Are there any problems with leafpad?

<bloodhound> prolly

<bloodhound> no

<bloodhound> i used leafpad then

<Hueynym> not if you're using Leafpad 0.8.9

<bloodhound> prob is, rox opens config files w geany by default

<Chronis_X> that does sound like a problem..

* bloodhound goes version checking

<Arti1> Then that has to be changed to leafpad

<bloodhound> sh-3.00# leafpad --version

<bloodhound> Leafpad 0.8.1

<Hueynym> buggy

<bloodhound> in 2.0.1

<Hueynym> I truly wish Barry would update it...

<SnowDog_Reall1> any laptop users (of 2.01) about?

<bloodhound> Hueynym: doesnt seem as buggy as geany though

<bloodhound> SnowDog_Reall1: present

<zigbert> Laptop user

<Arti1> Do we really need separate text editors? I use bluefish anyway...

<Hueynym> I uploaded 0.8.9 to the forums a few months ago

<Hueynym> bluefish isn't a text editor

<Arti1> No but it does the job...

<bloodhound> also there are files which geany refuses to open at all, but leafpad yes

<SnowDog_Reall1> just wondered if any one else noticed laptop going into sleep mode & nutzo touchpad after wake up?

<Hueynym> that just sounds odd....

<alienjeff> Are you saying an *.html file isn't a text file?

<bloodhound> why the heck the change from beaver to geany ?

<Arti1> Don't use laptop

<Hueynym> because geany is better :)

<zigbert> My laptop is perfect with 2.01

<bloodhound> not IMHO

<SnowDog_Reall1> Zigbert - you have touchpad? or pointing stick? both?

<Hueynym> then just download beaver, change the default and - ta da! you're back in business!

<bloodhound> alienjeff: no, thus the ending l, html is aprogramming language

<zigbert> touchpad and external mouse at same time

<SnowDog_Reall1> thanks, i'll test others

<bloodhound> SnowDog_Reall1: my thinkpad doesnt suspend at all, while it does perfectly in MoviX

<SnowDog_Reall1> sorry, MoviX?

(End of technical discussion clip - pls go to the top for the transcript of the meeting proper.)

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